NANCY & DENNIS REVISITED (from 2008)

Note: Nancy and Dennis are taking a brief break from guest-posting here, but are expected back shortly (and are greatly missed). In the interim, here is a reprise from the first post I did about them back on Aug. 13, 2008 -- before I was able to connect with them via email and ask them to be guest bloggers.

As you will note, Dennis was the nominal author of these brief excerpts from some of their posts on the old Yahoo “Venus on Top Discussion Board” (precursor of the "She Makes the Rules DiscussionBoard"). I enjoy his writing, but I was certainly delighted that Nancy has asserted her primacy in the more recent posts appearing here.

What struck me from the first, however, was that here was  a couple who, by their own description, not only advocated but evangelized for female-led relationships, and did so effectively and unapologetically. -- Mark Remond

Their "Backstory"

“Nancy and I have been in a female-led situation for over 25 years, Nancy is in charge of our household.
She manages our finances, makes all major decisions, and sets our social agenda. Nancy's mother, Sue, lives with us and I defer to her as I would Nancy…

“[But] while both Nancy and her mother can be quick-tempered, ours is not a BDSM relationship, nor am I going about the house teetering on heels with a feather duster when doing housework. Ours is a pragmatic relationship with a variety of house rules and expectations where my opinions are valued and considered. In the end, of course, we all recognize that women will be making the final decisions!”

“Nancy and I met in college – at a NOW meeting no less – and hit it off quickly; Nancy assumed a leadership role right from the start and that role continues to this day. Over the years she's taken more power. She's the financial manager and decision maker who is focused on her career. I, on the other hand, do the majority of the housework and am generally supportive of Nancy's career and personal goals.
Socially, we enjoy the company of other couples who, like us, are in varying degrees of female-led relationships.”

“We work at a local women's center where we conduct workshops aimed at getting wom
en to be more assertive in their personal relationships… We offer them practical tips for taking control, the first of which is for women to take control of the finances.”

“We are evangelists for female-dominated relationships and want to encourage more couples to embark on them. We advise women to take control of their relationships and do so by becoming more demanding of their men. These three points -- money, housework, and social life -- emerge as the big ones.

“What women want, in our experience, is some say in the finances, a man who'll bear his share of the housework, and a man that she can share social activities with. In our view women can't have too much control of these important relationship elements.”

FLR = Harmony & Happiness

“Nancy and I do have differences of opinion but my opinion is sought and considered, although we all recognize that within our relationship women will be making the final decision and, once made, that decision is final.”

“Our opinion is that female-led relationships have fewer issues and problems than vanilla ones, but this assumes that an FLR is a total commitment, not just a game. It also assumes benevolence on the part of the woman making the decisions in that relationship.”

“As a man I can tell you that I like knowing exactly what my wife wants and when and how she wants it done. No conflict; no arguments. And I can tell you that most men really do want to make their wives happy.”

Financial Control

“Nancy and I teach that managing finances is critical to a woman's leading a relationship. [Women] might want to enhance [their] skills in this area by seeking a skilled financial planner and/or taking some workshops. Women's organizations such as NOW and the YWCA are good places to start for such resources.”

“I'm embarrassed to say that I was quite the spendthrift early in our marriage and spending money and not able to account for it, so Nancy put her foot down and initiated some pretty strict rules. She took away my debit card, limited how much money I could have with me at any one time – I was spending WAY too much at work buying coffee, lunches, and so on for too many people, too often.

   

“Her rules include limiting me to an allowance (albeit a generous one), requiring direct depositing of my paychecks, her having access to my company savings and benefits plans, limiting my use of bank and credit cards, and requiring justification of all card charges.

“How I spend my allowance is up to me but I've made a habit of asking Nancy's opinion on larger purchases. I can request (extra funds] but there are almost always conditions attached. Having to ask for money is a tremendous statement of who is in control. We are now financially solid as a result of her controls.”

House Rules

“We have a number of practical house rules that we've established over the years, mostly things that have

just evolved from practice as opposed to being dictates from my wife. Discipline is rare; I understand her expectations and, for the most part, meet them…We are friends with other couples in similar situations – households where the men realize the innate superiority of the women and defer to them.”

Power Exchange

“[Women shouldn’t] feel guilty about using power. Men derive tremendous benefits from an FLR so women should use the power they derive from such a relationship and seek more of it…

   

“In our evangelization of this lifestyle we frequently cite our own and the experiences of couples we know in FLR situations. All are extremely happy and wouldn't want it any other way. But it takes specifics to get things rolling one small step at a time. Once the lifestyle has momentum though, our experience is
that he'll be doing more, offering more power on his own.”

NANCY & DENNIS: SOME RANDOM THINGS

This is a postscript to the previous post, Keeping Control in a Lifelong Female-Led Marriage—a few things that just didn't fit anywhere else:

Keeping him busy on the road–A woman-friend was concerned about her husband traveling on business. I suggested she set rules and make calls to ensure that he's complying. Mother suggested she give him something to do while he's on the road, something to keep him busy:

Good reading—Men should be reading women's books and magazines and Feminist literature. Business travel is a great time to catch up. Dennis reads romance novels. Before he goes on a trip Mother gives him a new book and tells him that she expects to discuss it with him when he gets home. Hint: he better have read it!

 

Pack your knitting, gentlemen—Men should also have a craft such as knitting. Have your man pack his knitting, note where he is on a project and tell him how much more he’s to have done when he comes home. He should have a good reason for not getting as far as expected.

Getting ahead in the ‘new’ corporate environment—Dennis gets it down to a few key points:

• Ask for and take women's advice
• Shut up and listen to what women are saying
• Don't pass a female secretary or administrator's desk without asking if you can copy something for her or get something for her
• Make and serve some coffee
• Oh, and remember, it's “Yes, Ma’am”

Every day I love to:

• Have my husband put my shoes on for me before I walk to my car
• Hear my husband say, “Yes, Ma’am!”
• Give my husband something extra to do; buy cigarettes that I don't need, run out for pantyhose that I have no intention of wearing, pick up something I'm only going to tell him to take back
• Tell my husband, “NO!”
• Find fault with something my husband has done; and hear him say he's sorry
  
• Tell my husband that women are better than men and have him agree!
• Have my husband take off my shoes when I come home from work
• Do it all because I can!

NANCY & DENNIS: TOWARD A LIFELONG FEMALE LED MARRIAGE: KEEPING CONTROL

Women in female led marriages often feel that once they have an obedient hubby who does the housework, it’s game over. Well, ladies, it’s not! You have rules that he follows at home, and certainly these rules should apply everywhere, whether you or another female authority figure is around or not.

But what does he really do when he’s not at home? When he’s at work? When he’s on a business trip? Do you know? Well, you should, because you don’t want all your good work in training him to be undone by outside influences. Men, even the best of them, even those most committed to female leadership, can and will stray. Patriarchy is a strong force, and there are many men and – unfortunately – even a few women, who want to undo female leadership.

So what can we do? Well, your man has to understand that any rules you make at home apply everywhere! For example, in Dennis’ case, he knows that:

• his 9 p.m. curfew applies when he’s away just like it does at home
• he has the same spending limits and has to ask permission to exceed them
• he is expected to be courteous and deferential to women
• he’s allowed to be out for no more than two hours and then only with permission
• he has to call in regularly

Your man knows the rules, but does he follow them? You have to put in a few checks to be sure. Yes, it’s additional work, but his behavior will be well worth the effort!

Rules and Consequences – Rules that we have apply wherever he goes, but I may have other requirements for special situations. The consequences for violating a rule away from home are harsh.

Travel Plans – Dennis is required to provide a detailed itinerary for his business travel, including hotel and business phone numbers. I want to be able to reach him.

Cell Phone – He has a cell phone, and it’s a rule that when mother or I call, he has to excuse himself from the meeting and take our call; we are his priority, and his boss, Carol, understands this.

Curfew – I impose a 9 p.m. curfew on Dennis. Other women set different times, but no curfew for a husband should be later than 9:30. His being out longer invites overspending and over-indulging. Dennis has to be in by 9 unless there are special circumstances like a business dinner. He’s allowed out for this, but has to call as soon as he’s back in his room. Kathy suggested that women call their man in his hotel room, not on his cell phone, to make sure he’s where he’s supposed to be. I’d add that women may want to call hubby again, a little later, to make sure he hasn’t gone out again. Yes, it has happened.

At His Desk – Dennis is required to be at his desk over lunch whether away or at home.

Mother or I often call to make sure that he is. When he travels, I’ll often call his office and request to speak with him; call a cell phone and he can answer anywhere; call the office and you know where he is!

Expenses – I review Dennis’ expense account and corporate credit card. Any monies owed Dennis from his expense report – mileage reimbursement for travel to and from the airport, for example – are to be deposited into our account, from which I can transfer them. He also has to submit a list of any personal expenses with receipts. A man with money is likely to spend it frivolously; he won’t if he knows you’ll be checking!

Keeping Informed – A woman needs to keep informed about her man’s activities. Men are subject to a great deal of peer pressure and bad influence that even the best of men need help resisting. If he knows you’re watching, he’s more likely to behave correctly. Here are some suggestions from a recent meeting we had with women in female-led relationships:

Networking – Know what he’s doing when he’s away from home, whether locally or on a business trip, by establishing a network of contacts. One woman made friends with a few women in her man’s office, women who can observe what’s going on and let her know. She often knows what’s happening before her husband does, and if he deviates in his behavior, her network will let her know.

She says that setting up such a network is easy, and that all women should have one. By attending company functions she met people and formed a fairly extensive network that she can count on to keep her informed about what’s happening and to ensure her husband is complying with her rules. She’s helped by her network and in turn helps the women in her network. Her network includes secretaries, the wives of her husband’s co-workers, and, yes, even other men. Dennis is only too happy to help women keep control and put men in their place. There are a lot of men who hate patriarchy and want to see women prevail.

Debriefing – A number of women require their husbands to brief them on what occurred at work each day. She wants to know what he and others did and, yes, a little of the office gossip! The information she gets is shared with other women in her network. Like Dennis, this woman’s husband reports what he sees and is only too happy to report errant male behavior. I reward Dennis for his participation by letting him call a woman to provide her with information she may be interested in – as well as a bit of office gossip!

Learning who to ask – Use your network to get to know your man’s boss. Once you do, you can make requests of them – for example, to reduce your man’s travel. I’m friends with Dennis’s boss, Carol. Carol understands the dynamics of a female-led relationship as she is in one, too. She never asks Dennis to go on an out-of-town trip without my permission and often calls me directly to ask. Carol and I support each other by loaning out our husbands when either of them is out of town. I can count on Dave making a cleaning visit when Dennis is out of town, and Carol can count on the same from my man. It works!

Some other suggestions to keep control of things:

Have your husband to pack his lunch and eat at his desk. Call him at his desk phone over lunch to make sure he’s there. This saves money and eliminates opportunities for your  man to misbehave.

Take his bank card and limit his pocket money. He can’t be pushed into buying lunch or a round of beers after work if he doesn’t have money or a credit card. It’s a great way to dissolve any ties he has to the patriarchy, too!

Get a full itinerary from your man when he’s traveling. Know where he’s at and what he’s doing. Check in with him frequently. If he knows he’s being watched – even from afar – he’ll behave.

Have your man carry a cell phone so you can contact him when he’s out. Make it a rule that he always picks up calls from you or other female authority figures.

Another woman insists her husband provide her with a daily itinerary that she changes as she sees fit. She insists he call her to seek approval if there is any deviation from his plan.

Have him ask for permission whenever he leaves the house, no matter the reason. Limit his time away to no more than two hours. Anymore than this and he could be spending too much money and wasting time.

-- N

NANCY & DENNIS: TOWARD A LIFELONG FEMALE-LED MARRIAGE: DOMESTIC SERVICE

(Note: This is the second of four postings on "TOWARD A LIFELONG FEMALE-LED MARRIAGE." Part one dealt with "Obedience." To follow, as time permits, will be postings on "Personal Service" and "Atonement.")

Housekeeping - a Gentleman’s Concern

Housework has long been a point of contention in marriages; we did too much and men did too little—if, any! With women entering the workplace and taking managerial jobs, things are changing. Women are demanding that their husbands do more housework—much more! And their husbands are doing it!

So how much housework should a man be doing? How about all of it! Ladies, it’s true! A properly trained man can do all the housework and have a job outside the home, too. My man does. It will take some work on your part to properly train and manage him, but once he’s trained, he’ll do what you want, when you want, how you want it done—AND he’ll enjoy doing it.

Now how much housework he does always depends on what you want. Let's be pragmatic. If the woman has a job and earns the bulk of a couple’s income then he should be doing all the housework—very simple formula here! The opposite however, is NEVER true! Even if he’s the sole source of income, we feel that he should be doing at least 50% of the housework. This is because his doing housework has numerous desirable benefits in any relationship:

• Frees up your time to pursue a career, further your education, go out with friends, or just relax. And don't ignore your just relaxing, it's important!
• Housework keeps him productively occupied; is there anything better he could do with his time?
• Men want to please women, and housework is a great way to let them do that!
• Keeps him at home where he’s not likely to be corrupted by male influences
• His doing a traditionally female task teaches him some humility and recognizes your superiority
• His doing housework shows him who’s boss – You!

A woman shouldn’t feel guilty if her man is doing the housework; she and her man both benefit. Besides, women are morally, intellectually, and emotionally superior to men; why should we be doing housework?

Start Early!

A woman shouldn’t go too far in a relationship before she brings up the topic of housework and her expectations that he’s going to be doing it. Exactly how much she’ll determine later, but he shouldn’t concern himself with that! And it’s never too early to start! When he visits, point him to the vacuum and have him sweep your living room. Have him clean up after dinner. See how adept he is with a feather duster when you tell him to do some dusting! He works; you watch! Don’t be ashamed of sitting down with a cup of tea while he vacuums; you’re showing your power and setting his expectations.

A woman-friend has had her boyfriend doing housework for her from the beginning of their relationship. She’s progressively given him more and more to do. Now when he visits he finds things to do without being told. “He enjoys helping me,” she says. When wedding bells ring for this couple, she’ll have him and his expectations where she wants them!

Starting early has other benefits, too. When a man is in an apron cleaning up the kitchen you can look into his soul! When you tell him to do something—yes, tell; don’t ask—you can learn a lot about him by his response. If he refuses or says that it’s ”woman’s work,” don't waste your time, you can move on. Progressive gentlemen, though, are excited by the opportunities to serve that doing housework presents.

Train Him!

Most men have little experience with housework and need to be trained. So, ladies, train him! This is one of the best investments you can make. Show him how you want the living room cleaned, the laundry done, the dishwasher loaded, the bathrooms scrubbed, the linens changed, the table set. Be firm with him! Have him work with you the first time and then supervise him as you ease him into the task over a few days. After that he’s on his own and should be doing his work with no supervision. If he wants supervision, he is game playing – don't tolerate it!

You’ll want to periodically check on his work and correct him if thing are not done to your satisfaction. Dennis understands it’s my way or there’s hell to pay! He understands that if things aren’t done right, they’re done over! And over! And over again, if need be. He also understands that things done wrong mean demerits; get enough demerits, and there are consequences!

Women have told me that some men play “difficult-to-train” in hopes of having women give up and do the task themselves. Don't fall for this! Make him do his housework and make him do it right.

Need help with training? Well, think about:

• Get some assistance—outside assistance. In my case I’d loan him to my Mother and aunt who’d put him to work doing housework. They’d show him how to do something and then watch over him while he did it. When he came back after a weekend, Dennis' skills would be a lot better.
• Enroll him in classes – A woman friend enrolled her husband in cooking classes at a local community college; his cooking skills have improved significantly
• Give him a subscription to a woman's magazine that focuses on homemaking. He'll pick up some useful tips he can use around the house. When he sees how useful the magazine is in his homemaking, he'll read it cover-to-cover.

Book of Wisdom for Him

Tell most men to “clean the living room” and you’re not likely to get what you expect! It’s why we have written standards for how to do household tasks. Consider doing this. Many of the standards we have were written by my mother and aunts long ago. Newer ones I dictate and Dennis writes down what I say. Since we have things spelled out, Dennis knows just what to do and how to do it. I get what I want and he stays out of trouble by doing things the way I want them done.

Men Love Routine!

Men love routine; they love being told what to do. So take advantage and have something scheduled for him to do seven days a week AND make sure he does it. And he will, too! Giving him a routine is like putting him on automatic.

Dennis has a schedule; he washes on Saturday, irons on Sunday, cleans bathrooms on Thursday, scrubs floors on Friday, and shops on Tuesday. He vacuums, tidies up, and looks after mother and me every day. He comes home from work, puts on his apron and gets to work – he knows what to do and he has five minutes from the time he walks in the door to start doing it!

I can be working late or be out of town, and Mother could be out with her friends, but we know that dennis is at home doing what we expect. How long does Dennis work? Well, I get about four hours a day from him on weekdays; much more on weekends. Heavier and more disruptive tasks are scheduled for days when Mother and I will be out for a time; at the mall or spa, for example. Leisure time is built into dennis’ routine, too. As I’ll note later, leisure usually means free time at home or accompanying Mother and me somewhere. I want him to relax, but his free time is at risk if he doesn’t get his work done; housework can spill over into leisure time if he needs to get caught up.

Making Him More Efficient

I’m a business woman and I’m always looking to get more out of what I have. I want the same job and same quality in less time. Why not get more from my man? How do you do this? Well:

• Push him, be demanding! Make him do his tasks in less time. Just a little less time for each task will give him time to do even more.
• Make sure he’s busy; if he’s doing wash there’s a lot of time between loads when he could be dusting or vacuuming. I love to see that feather duster moving and hear that vacuum humming, and he knows it!
• I limit Dennis to in-house tasks. Typical guy tasks take up too much time and aren’t worth it. You can have windows cleaned and lawns mowed for not a lot of money; a full-time maid, though, costs a fortune! Putting my man to work inside is the best use of his time.
• One of the unique things I did to get Dennis to be more efficient was to send him out for a few Saturdays with a maid service owned by a woman I know. The maids clean six houses in an afternoon, so they’re very efficient. Dennis was always exhausted when he came home, but he learned a lot that he put to good use at home.
• I get some of my best suggestions from Dennis! He’s always looking to do more and makes a lot of suggestions on how to improve. He's becoming a real Domestic Diva!

Knowing His Place

• Men should accept their roles as homemakers and enter a relationship with the expectation of doing much or all of the housekeeping.
• Men should take ownership of housekeeping tasks, which means doing them to her standards without being told.
• Men should realize that their being asked to embrace the homemaker role is a direct result of women gaining their rightful places in the workforce.
• The future is Matriarchy and under a Matriarchy homemaking is a viable career choice for progressive gentlemen.
• He should be open and proud of his role as homemaker. When we're out and my husband is asked what he does, his response is, “I'm a homemaker, but also work outside the home.”
• Women, too, should acknowledge the homemaking roles their husbands have and the benefits this provides their marriage. This can only serve to encourage others to explore and adopt the female-led lifestyle. Progressive gentlemen love being homemakers!
• He should see homemaking as an opportunity to empower his wife and as a new and viable career direction for him.

Oh, and ladies, relax while he’s working—it shows your power when you read the paper while he's taking care of the house!

N