Nancy
writes: There was a comment awhile back that giving preferences to women was
sexist. Moving to bring women into the
mainstream isn't sexist at all. Unless we move assertively, the male "system"
and good-old-boy network will continue to deny women and to direct them into
traditionally female roles, roles that keep women at an economic disadvantage
and, thus, subservient to men. Education and creative legislation are needed to
help women move up to real equality
- Are we being sexist when we advocate women stepping up and taking control at home and in the workplace? No!
- Are we being sexist when we advocate closing the pay gap and empowering women economically? No!
- Are we being sexist when we embrace women's leadership? No!
- Are we being sexist when we advocate basing societal norms on women's approaches and dismissing the confrontational ways of patriarchy? No!
- Are we being sexist when we advocate setting aside contracts and jobs as a way of having women break into the economic mainstream? No!
- Are we being sexist when we feel women should have proportional participation in areas such as high technology and government? No!
- Are we being sexist when we dream of Matriarchy where women's values, approaches, and leadership are the norm? No!
- Are we being sexist when we feel women should work against the engrained patterns of patriarchy by taking control of their households and demanding more from their husbands? No, we are not!
Think
of it differently, think of it as providing men with the opportunity to have
the same personal and professional experiences that women have
traditionally had:
- The opportunity to become homemakers and care-givers
- The opportunity to work in traditionally female careers such as care-giving, clerical, secretarial, and administrative without social stigmas being attached to their choices
- The opportunity of having HER assume the role of head of household
- The opportunity to share in his wife's successes by supporting HER career
- The opportunity to experience female leadership in the workplace
And
all or this should be looked at as totally acceptable from a social and
personal perspective. That's equality!
I'll
get off my soapbox now.
--N
23 comments:
Well, I'm glad you've discovered "2nd wave" feminism, all the way here in 2012!
The "75" percent canard has been debunked so many times its not funny. Just google 75 percent canard, or you could look into the CONSAD report, or Warren Farrell's "Why Men Earn More", etc.
And disproportional representation in and of itself does not prove discrimination.
As for the rest, it made my head hurt.
As for men's rules and them changing, well perhaps you should talk to your sisters about changing their sexual preference template so that confidence and dominance in men is not rewarded with sex. Since men have two ways of defining manhood:
A- through their own personal accomplishments or the opinions of other men which is a distinct minority
Or
B - through the opinions of women as to what turns them on or defines a "real" man
I respectfully suggest that as B is the larger part of the equation that you need to work on changing that if you want to get rid of the behavior you so deplore.
Clarence
The pay gap is not a mirage. The fact that professions like nursing which were almost exclusively Female were lower paid until more men became nurses and are now much better paid.
It was in living memory when Universities excluded women.
Femsup
Expressing preference for one sex over another IS the very definition of sexest (sexism (ˈsɛksɪzəm)
— n
discrimination on the basis of sex - from dictionary.com)
If women are so equal then why don't they just catch and achieve higher? Why do they need the "law" beat down men, just so women can keep up? What you are talking about when you say "equal" is lowering the bar so that now, you too can make it over just like "the guys".
AND_ as for the nursing pay. It was always pretty good- even better when big corp's started taking over the hospitals. Men started getting into nursing because the pay was good, men had nothing to do with the pay getting good. (Unless we count the MEN that run the hospitals). If men and women were equal then you wouldn't need *special favors* (like the handicaped get special parking BECAUSE they are NOT equal) If you need special laws then that tells me you are are my lesser and can't achieve without someone's (most likely a man) help.
I have nothing women achieving greatness/wealth/power... but I do have a problem with the devaluing of everything for the "lowering of the bar" for a few.
Thanks,
All the best-
HHG
The preceding sounds like a silly fight between a feminist and a male chauvinist.
I'm happy that Nancy and Dennis are carrying the torch so nobly carried by Mark Redmon for so long.
As for my observation? I'm taking some college courses. Young women are clearly dominating there!
For many years the syllabus was weighted in favour of men.Questions were more often than not about traditional male subjects.Now the questions are more gender neutral and the pupils themselves are learning things not previously associated with their sex.
Femsup
89I agree that N is sexist because She is focusing on the sex of the person. However, is this bad? Racism is illogical because it has not been shown that one race (when one controls for environment)is superior to the others, but if Women are superior to men should they not occupy positions of authority? I have spent the last 12 years working for a Woman who often assigns me to serve other Women in Her management group. It is an honor to obey these Women and dovetails perfectly with my role at home as a household slave to my Wife.
This is a great discussion. Can equality for all be compatible with a society based on female values, priorities, and approaches. Yes, it can.
First, patriarchal ways of doing things have been ingrained for thousands of years. To refuse to do anything to help level the playing field is to give men an unfair advantage in many circumstances.
Second, equality is really about the ability of all people to reach their potentials. Under patriarchy not only women's but men's potentials have been stunted. Many men have been asked to take on roles and tasks they are unsuited for. Women have been unfairly held back. As men give up their old male ego, more and more of them find a life of service to be fulfilling, while more and more women move into leadership positions.
Men of service want their wives to be heads of the household, to have more time for themselves than men have, and to be in a position to train, guide, and lead men. They love it when women can out-achieve them and out-smart them. They are women's biggest fans. This is a different kind of male fulfillment, but allowing it to happen is equality, just as creating circumstances that allow women to achieve leadership is equality. This would be a win-win for women and men, but for a new kind of woman and a new kind of man.
There is no telling what will happen in the future. At the very least, a new and better paradigm for women's relationship to men is on the verge of widespread accpetance. In the long run, we have the opportunity to create a civilization where women's leadership is the norm in the family and society, and men are their loyal assistants.
LS
With apologies for being a little tardy on these responses to thoughtful comments...
To Anonymous ("The pay gap is no mirage..."):
We agree with you! Look at any pink collar or care-giving profession and you're likely to see low wages. If men were a significant component of these occupations, I'd bet that the salaries and prestige of these would rise accordingly. In both my and my husband's companies there is an ongoing effort to increase the participation of women in the workforce, particularly at professional and technical positions. There also has been an effort to move women out of their traditional roles as secretaries and into administrative positions. We have always paid above level salaries to women in such positions. What we find is that as women move into other assignments their secretarial and clerical positions are now filled by men, men who cannot compete with women on a professional level.
To Anonymous ("I agree that N is sexist..."):
Thank you for your comments. I have always stood for women being in positions of authority, whether it be in the workplace, the home, or both. Women are emotionally, morally, and intellectually superior to men, and now they are getting the formal education to back this up. We are in a transition period where women are assuming more and more of a leadership role. The workplace and the home are looking very different from what we've known. Enlightened gentlemen are only too happy to work for and with women; they recognize that women are the future!
You have a good attitude about obeying the women with whom you work; my husband does the same. He has a particularly demanding manager at the woman-owned company where he works; she is the executive in charge. The lessons he's learned at home - obedience is one - are helpful in the workplace. The opposite is true too -- men who work for demanding women are all too happy to continue having a woman in charge when they go home. We're seeing more and more female-led marriages, many started by the man taking action.
Oh, and a final note - you are NOT a household slave; you are a homemaker and a submissive gentlemen. I'm sure your wife would agree.
N
To Anonymous ("For many years the syllabus...")
I don't think it's so much that questions were gender-neutral but rather that women were steered down a path of traditional female roles -- homemaking, care-giving, and so on. What we are seeing now is that women are capable of doing traditionally male jobs in the sciences, engineering, and management. As a result women have significantly increased their earnings and now want husbands to take on the homemaking role. Enlightened men look at the opportunity to be a homemaker as exciting and challenging, and many men are doing as their wives request and becoming homemakers, at least on a part-time basis.
Getting back to what you said about "gender neutral," what we used to have was gender-based values; things that were male were the accepted norm because men had all the power. With women in control, things are starting to be based on women's values and expectations. It's a new world, a woman's world!
N
To Obedient Husband:
Thank you for your comsment -- and I love obedient men!
There are, unfortunately, many men who just don't see that the deck has been stacked in favor of men for thousands of years. To undo these ingrained preferences for things male is going to take some effort. These men want to keep the status quo and their advantages. Enlightened men see that women are the future and they want to be a part of that future. Both Dennis and I work in female-managed companies, and we both see the change in attitudes among men - particularly younger men - about working for women. They love it! It's always interesting to see a job opening come up. If the job is for a woman supervisor, no matter how tough her reputation, men are applying in droves; if it reports to a man, the job maybe gets half the interest. What's wrong? Nothing at all -- men are just recognizing that women are the future!
N
To Anonymous ("This is a great discussion..."):
Thank you so much for your reply. Yes, we have to fight ingrained patriarchy; men have made a mess of the world for thousands of year; now it's time for women to take over and base society on women's values and expectations. This just isn't about women; patriarchy has victimized millions of men, and they too will benefit from women assuming leadership.
We are in a very exciting time with an educated female workforce making inroads in the workplace and at home as well. The roles of women and men are changing; women are the future!
It all starts one relationship at a time - one couple at a time -- taking action at home and in the workplace
N
To Anonymous ("This is a great discussion..."):
Thank you so much for your reply. Yes, we have to fight ingrained patriarchy; men have made a mess of the world for thousands of year; now it's time for women to take over and base society on women's values and expectations. This just isn't about women; patriarchy has victimized millions of men, and they too will benefit from women assuming leadership.
We are in a very exciting time with an educated female workforce making inroads in the workplace and at home as well. The roles of women and men are changing; women are the future!
It all starts one relationship at a time - one couple at a time -- taking action at home and in the workplace
N
When a profession starts to look gender equal, after being male dominated for decades, the main difference is in the ages of the people in the profession.
For example, veterinary medicine used to be near 100% male decades ago. In the 1970s veterinary school was about 90% male. Women started going to veterinary school more, and by the 1980s veterinary schools had caught up to 50/50.
However, women kept entering veterinary school, and nowadays veterinary schools are commonly 80-90 percent female.
If one looks at the composition of the veterinary profession, one will find that it is roughly 50/50, with slightly more women, with most of the older veterinarians being male (and retiring), and the vast majority of younger veterinarians being female.
But, at a rough glance, it just looks like the profession is 50/50 gender equal, but a closer look reveals that women will clearly dominate the profession.
http://blog.smu.edu/research/2010/11/01/veterinary-medicine-shifts-to-more-women-fewer-men-pattern-will-repeat-in-medicine-law-fields/
In many medical schools in Canada, it is not unusual for medical schools to be over 60% female, with some over 70% female.
What is startling is not what we see at present, because they are a reflection of past trends, but what is happening worldwide among the youth.
http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=827904
This is the future.
What is startling is not what we see at present, because they are a reflection of past trends, but what is happening worldwide among the youth.
http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=827904
This is the future.
Most respectfully Ms. N Ma'am, Wife doesn't use the slave word but She does state I am "chattel" or "property". I think my obligation to obey Her is greater than it would be simply in 1950's style role reversal relationship. But I thank You for acknowledging my comment. I respond to You the same way I respond to my Female Boss when She compliments me, "thank you Ma'am".
To lucas ("What is startling...") --
Yes, women are outperforming men in areas that have traditionally been male-dominated fields. One of the areas in which women have lagged in the past has been in science-engineering-math, so it's good that they are moving ahead in these high-demand, high-paying areas. What's really behind looking at these trends is that being able to excel in high-demand fields is empowering women economically. And economic empowerment goes hand in hand with women gaining status, independence, and being able to make real change. When women are top earners, men will have to respect them because women will have real power.
For lucas ("When a profession..."):
Thank you for the excellent reference, I enjoyed the article. It points up many of the things that we Feminists have been saying for some time. When barriers are taken down and women can compete on an equitable basis, they can, and do, succeed.
I recently visited a veterinary clinic with my sister who was taking her pet for treatment. At this particular clinic the only men were those bringing in their pets. The clinic was run, staffed, and administered by women. Women have gravitated to this field in large numbers since federal law took down barriers to their applying. Couple that with more women getting bachelors degrees and we can see real and exciting changes ahead.
Incidentally, men who repeatedly say that women "need help" because they are somehow inferior to men need to read the article you reference because it points up the fact that the only thing women need is to have barriers to their participation removed and they can take it from there. The future is with women; they will feminize the professions and society. Hold on to your hats, men, you are in for a real ride!
Also for lucas:
You make some interesting observations. With women entering in greater numbers and older men retiring, the trend is that women will dominate many professions--e.g., your comment about women in medical schools in Canada. This can be at least partially attributed to Canada's progressive attitude to taking down barriers to entry into professional fields for women. While I don't have any statistics to support this, my trips to Canada lead me to believe that Canadian men in general are more supportive of women's new roles and of women's rights in general than what we might find elsewhere. Another thing I see is men being very open with this support of women, which promotes wider and faster acceptance.
Thank you for your post!
I think once exams have their male bias removed then the real winners of the level playing field are Womyn.
But as more and more Womyn take up what were traditionally male roles and vice versa these "male questions" in exams will not be he same.
For instance when I was a lad a test might focus on generals in war a subject less favourably looked on by Females. With questions more level or Female centric then we will have a natural tendency for Womyn to better than males.
Femsup
Femsup --
Gender bias is one of the things that feminists are fighting against. Gender bias is everywhere, certainly in exams as you mention, but also in the roles society assigns to women. And then there is the continuing practice, by too many, of dismissing women's opinions and views -- another gender bias of sorts. It takes a lot to change this, but it can work when we start one female-run marriage at a time, one obedient man at a time. Eventually women's values and approaches become the norm.
I might agree with this if you would also hold the door open for me, pay for our date, and make a "save the men and children first" policy on life boats. Yes, your sexist but I love it:)
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