Friday, July 8, 2011

Lighting Her Cigars, Part 2

Part 1 on this topic posed a couple of questions dealing with female led relationships. I’ll start with the first one: Is servility to a woman incompatible with manliness?

Before I ever got around to writing this follow-up post, Lady Grey answered my questions as follows:

“What Dom wants a wuss at her disposal? Controlling an ‘A’ personality type man, bringing him happily to his knees before you, to be served not in a servile manner, but in a deeply grateful manner...well, I'll opt for that every time. Having an intelligent man who is perfectly comfortable in his manhood and who responds to your unspoken commands, to your gestures, your shrugs, your raised eyebrows, your tapping feet, and who can anticipate your needs and knows what to do to satisfy them...well, to me that's a real man. A man worthy of control, of rewards, and even punishment if need be.”

I think she’s saying it depends. One guy could respond to “your shrugs, your raised eyebrows, your tapping feet” in a Type A, manly manner; while another guy could do the same thing wussily, as it were.

Manly or even macho servitude to a woman is inherent in the Knight-Queen model of wife worship. The knight is servile to his lady or queen, obedient to her every whim, yet intrepid and brave in carrying out her commands and commissions in the world.

Can we apply those courtly standards to household chores, like polishing her pumps and hand-washing her lingerie? That’s the case I’ve been trying to make in my book and blog posts, under the general heading of Domestic Dragon-Slaying. I admit it’s kind of a stretch, but it is doable, and Lady Grey apparently agrees.

You’ll find unquestionably macho types--black belts, ex-linebackers, cops, weight-lifters--who relish being ordered about by a diminutive pistol of a wife or girlfriend. I could cite dozens of such testimonials, but I'll spare you this time. Take my word for it.

When my wife objected to my early signs of seeming servility (“Don’t be a sycophant!”), it stung. She was right, of course (when is she not?). I was overreacting to her musings and suggestions, flying off the handle to do stuff she hadn’t asked for. I had to dial back my fawning impulses drastically.

My solution was to be responsive, even anticipatory to her needs, but in a more laid-back way. I took as my model Rhett Butler catering to Scarlett with his lazy, tomcat smile, but catering all the same. Or maybe a guy from a moving van asking the lady of the house, “Where do you want I should put down this piano, lady?” Ready to serve, no big fuss about it.

But male servility and male submissiveness remain loaded terms as far as mainstreaming FLRs, and oxymoronic terms for some.

Even Beckie Sue, who contributed two stirring guests posts on female superiority (here and here, draws a sharp distinction between submission and obedience:

“I never liked the idea that some men are submissive. Men are by nature obedient. Through school (in the past), sports, military, and jobs they are required to be obedient; much more so than women. It is their nature to be obedient and to work. It is the nature of the female to be sexual/sensual and to direct the men in their lives.”

Beckie Sue describes her gradual journey from an egalitarian to a matriarchal marriage as a natural evolution, in which both she and her husband feel comfortable and fulfilled in their basic natures. So her guy is not submissive, she insists, although he is completely (and willingly) ruled by Beckie Sue in almost every aspect of his life, and has certainly surrendered almost all authority in the relationship to her.

At one point, as an example, she informed him that his paycheck would henceforth be direct-deposited into her private checking account, and that he would surrender his debit card and be allowed only $10 spending money, which she would replenish as needed. When he raised initial objections, her answer was that her decision was final and permanent.

“Of course he wasn't happy when I told him of this. But afterward he said his happiness isn't important, his only happiness is to see me happy. Which I am.”

This power imbalance is standard policy in many wife-led marriages and female-led relationships. A woman calling herself “Melissa” explained in a letter to Elise Sutton how all issues were amicably settled between herself and her husband Patrick:

“The First Rule of Our Relationship: We discuss; I decide; he obeys. In cases where my mind is already made up, or I feel strongly about a particular issue, the need for discussion is obviated and Patrick is simply informed. This eliminates the need for discussion in about seventy percent of all cases, allows Patrick to concentrate on his engineering career and leaves other issues in my far more capable hands.

“The Second Rule of Our Relationship: We have Absolutes; I have absolute freedom; he accepts and lives under my absolute control; this applies to all aspects; there are no exceptions.”

Which brings me to the second question raised in Part 1 of this post: “What is the proper role of power in an FLR/perpetual courtship marriage?”

This, too, elicited a quick and authoritative response from Lady Grey: “You ask ‘what is the role of the unequal balance of power in a FLR?’ I'd answer that the inevitable imbalance of power in such a relationship is the very ESSENCE of the relationship. A balance of power would make a FLR unworkable.“

But Beckie Sue’s ascension to the seat of power in her marriage was based on her gradual realization and acceptance of the “fact of female superiority”, which, she says, “is only natural.” So natural that her teen-aged daughters have found themselves elevated by degrees to a level just beneath their mother’s. Husband and son, meanwhile, have also come to accept the naturalness of this female-ascendant state of affairs, from which has flowed a willing, even enthusiastic deference on their part to female rule of the household.

It may, in fact, have been the avowed interest of Beckie Sue’s husband in wife worship that launched all these role reversals in their marriage. In this sense, she is only fulfilling his exalted vision of her.

There are obvious power perks for the wife who asserts and exercises primacy over her husband. As Beckie noted, “What woman wouldn’t want to have a marriage where what she said was final, where her husband would obey her and desire her? What wife wouldn’t want a home where the housework, cleaning, laundry, washing dishes, scrubbing the bathroom, was her husband’s job; she would be free to pursue more fulfilling interests? How many would enjoy those more fulfilling pursuits during the day while he is at work earning money for her to enjoy? What wife wouldn’t love to have control of his paycheck and manage all the finances? What female wouldn’t love to be worshiped as a goddess?”

(I found an interesting echo of Beckie Sue’s above quote in an old Spousechat posting from “Charles,” aka “Mr. Lisa”: “Lisa is the envy of all of her female friends, business associates, and female neighbors. What woman would not want a live-in housekeeper, cook, handyman, chauffer, butler, manicurist/ pedicurist/ masseur, personal assistant, laundry person, errand boy, and bedroom partner?”)

But there may be even more fundamental reasons for a wife to tilt the balance of marital power decidedly in her favor. A persuasive exposition of this can be found in “Vivian’s Domain,” re “Power and Beauty”(excerpted on my blog):

“…for most women, even attractive ones, it is not possible after years of cohabitation and child bearing to become beautiful enough to inspire the kind of awe that will motivate her husband. So, what can a woman do? She can understand this: Not only is there power in beauty, there is beauty in power! The ‘take my breath away’ kind of awe that a man feels when he sees a stunningly beautiful woman is similar to the feelings he had as a young adolescent toward women of power in his life—teachers, neighborhood moms, and strict women in general. In order to make your husband a better man and a better spouse, you need to make him eager to win your approval and fearful of earning your disapproval. You must exert the kind of power that grabs his attention, makes you beautiful to him and takes his breath away. You must make him adore you again!”

Power vs Superiority

For the FLR blogger I’M HERS, female-led relationships are all about power, not about female superiority. As he explained it in a May 6, 2011 posting: “The question I keep asking myself is this: Is [my wife] Katie my superior? When I bring the topic back to Katie and me, there is but one variable: power, and Katie has it all. I gave it to her. She’s the ‘professor’. She judges me; assesses me; makes the rules; gives me the syllabus with all the requirements needed to ‘pass her course’. She is the final judge. Does that make her superior? I don’t know and it really doesn’t matter. I am not in love with Katie because she is superior and I am inferior to her in every way. If that were true, why would she ever be attracted to me?... it’s not about what Beckie says [i.e., female superiority], it’s about a power exchange… Dominance and submission have all to do with power and nothing to do with a comparison of talents, intelligence and other such qualities.”

Obviously I agree with both I’M HERS and Vivian that a fully empowered wife is sexy. But, in my case, that’s putting the cart before the horse. Yes, my wife possesses and exercises the power in our marriage and family, to an extent that any monarch might envy. But I didn’t cede that power to her, nor did she appropriate it.
What happened is, as far as I can tell, my wife’s accretion of power occurred over many years, incrementally, even insidiously, as a natural by-product of her superior judgment, follow-through, practicality, memory, social savvy, strength of will, completeness of psyche, emotional range and maturity—yatta ta yattata.

I’m thinking that it was very like the tidal upward mobility of women in the workforce, especially in the professions. Yes, they now wield more and more power, and it is increasing dramatically year by year; but that power did not come their way via an abdication by males, or a storming of the citadel by women (though I do not deny the effect of advocacy, in opening up previous all-male citadels). Mainly it seems to have come about because, once in the door, a preponderance of women quietly and unarguably demonstrated not only equality with men, but a surprising superiority.

Thus it has been with my wife and me. Things go better when she is in charge, when I seek and follow her advice. Whenever I got angry with her (as I used to do), I would eventually realize that I was being childish, petulant and invariably wrong. When she became angry with me (which still happens from time to time), I would eventually see the error of my ways, realize that she was right (again!) and was owed an apology.

So, yes, in our house she is enthroned and empedestaled, worshipped and obeyed. I found my level and she found hers, simple as that. So, yes, power is sexy, but it flows, at least chez moi, from my wife’s superiority, at least some of it attributable to her gender.

And I consider myself a smart guy, by the way, but part of my smarts is recognizing that she truly is my better half.



tboy said...

Great post. I agree 100%.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for referring back to my posts earlier, and for acknowledging the difference between submissive and obedience.

A submissive male is one who seeks to serve a wife for his own satisfaction and pleasure.

An obedient husband is one who understands female superiority, and the need to always focus, support, and serve that superiority.

I know many of your readers disagree with the idea of female superiority, because they fear being "politically incorrect." But female superiority is a fact of life. Gender equality is what is "politically correct" today. But as I stated previously, every time girls are allowed to be equal to boys, they always surpass them and become superior in whatever endeavor. Just a few notices in our local newspaper the past month can show that:

Last week they ran a special section on all students in all schools in the area receiving scholarships. One small rural school had a 50/50 split between girls and boys. Every other school had far more girls than boys; by almost a 2:1 ratio of girls getting scholarships than boys. Saturdays they always post pictures of organizations giving awards, etc. In the past two weeks, some examples are one that had 14 girls to 4 boys, another 12:4 and another 5:2. I could continue; I never see one with more boys than girls.

Another example is the Soap Box Derby. This had been traditionally a boys event only in the past (because only boys have the skills to build these racers of course). Several years ago girls were allowed to start competing. Last month in our local race, all three age groups were won by girls, and one of three runners-up was a girl. Check your own local paper and see how many girls won this year.

Younger people in this age group are becoming used to seeing girls as being better. Though they may not think or say they are superior, sub-consciously they know it. As they grow up and have their own homes, female superiority will be the norm, to be expected.

The Supreme Court case against Wal-Mart was 5-4, with five males in favor of Wal-Mart, and three females and one male in favor of the women. Think about how the courts will vote when this generation of students are older.

So, yes, female superiority is a fact of life. When the boys marry in years to come, their obedience and worship to their wives will be their desire. The wives will lead in their home, and this will be the norm. Wives don't have to be dominant in a FLR, they will just expect and receive worship and obedience from their husband.

Mark Remond said...

Beckie Sue - typical, and proof of your thesis: I spew out words by the yard, and still don't get it said, and you encapsulate everything in two succinct definitions that say it all:

"A submissive male is one who seeks to serve a wife for his own satisfaction and pleasure.
"An obedient husband is one who understands female superiority, and the need to always focus, support, and serve that superiority."

Thank you for stopping by--and please, let us hear from you as often as possible.

Obedient husband said...

I just came across a very interesting article entitled
"Why Men are the Submissive Sex".

It's an intriguing read and suggest that much of what remains of the old patriarchal society is based upon.... male submission aka "discipline".

PermanentGuesst said...

"Is servility to a woman incompatible with manliness?"

My answer would be negative, yet that is based on what I consider manhood to be. I am curious as to what your definition of 'manliness' is. Then we can work from there.

Mark Remond said...

Permanent Guest, I'm really not interested in opening a philosophical dialogue on the nature of manhood or manliness. I was referring more to each reader's own view of, or assumptions about what constitutes manliness. I do subscribe to the general precept, however, that one is a human being first and secondarily male or female, so that one's manhood should be subordinate to one's humanity.

PermanentGuest said...

Neither am I interested in a philosophical dialogue, nor do I know what made you think I was.

My desire is to answer the question posed. To do so would require you to find a definition of manhood, then weigh it accordingly.

I see eye to eye with you that we are humans before we are males and females, yet judging by a few comments to you, males seem to resemble dogs more than humans. If it is true that our gender is subordinate to our humanity, then we shouldn't be advocating worship for one another. Worship belongs to God.


Obedient husband said...

Response to Permanent Guest:
I think that somebody is taking everything way too seriously, especially himself. While there are some wacked out souls out there who literally believe in female divinity, our friend Mark is not one of them. Lighten up dude, this is more about dropping the power struggle that exist in so many marriages, embracing our submissive natures (if applicable) and letting our wives lead. It's not for everybody, but it's a great approach for many couples. If I were a marriage counselor, I'd make Mark's book required reading. Now run along and play..... and be nice.

Mark Remond said...

Permanent Guest, amen to Obedient Husband's remarks. You've made your point, and now let's leave it at that please.

ALL HERS said...

Mark, another great topic and post by you. You really do hit the nail on the head with your writings on WLM.

I thought hard about some comments, first off, are we less manly because we submit to our wives? I fully submit to her, do all of the housework, washing , ironing and prepare most meals. And I do wear panties, my own, not hers, 24/7. She likes me in them, but they can't be feminine with lace or ribbons, and must be not pink or have girly prints. That she will not allow. As I have told you in the past, it is easy for us because we are now retied. My wife says we should have done this 20 years ago.

But I do feel manly, desire my wife all of the time and feel that men would be better off if they had a loving WLM. One where the wife controls their husbands orgasms based on the husbands behavior and how he pleased her. I know it will never happen, too many macho types, but these guys don't know what they are missing.

Anyway, I am submissive and obedient to my wife. Is she superior? Yes, she is because she is a woman and has the ability to fully dominant and control her husband. And being a woman makes her superior to a man anyday.

Dismel said...

Another perspective on the difference between obey and submit: obey is derived from Latin 'to hear' whereas submit is derived from 'to put under'.

I know that the words obedience and submission are often used interchangeably, but it can be useful to make the distinction.

I believe that both partners in a marriage have equal worth and value while bringing different strengths and abilities, and that it is unhealthy for the relationship for one partner to be seen/treated as inferior in terms of worth/value (submission as per its orginal meaning.)

Nevertheless, when one partner (husband) chooses to obey (to actively hear & respond to) the other (the wife), he is not doing it because he is inferior, but because he wants to show his love for her, to acknowledge the worth of his wife, ie worship (worth-ship) her.

Anonymous said...

Wow. just So many smart thoughts and words here, thank you. :D

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the blog Mark. I'm only about 5 weeks into a WLR and have found your site to be the one I always turn to for information. As for the topic at hand, I like to think of it is not so much focused on my submission - not on me being submissive - but on my wife's dominance. I am very anxious to introduce her to your blog at some point, but am being patient. So far her only information has been me explaining to her that I am finally ready to accept her role as the leader in our marriage along with a bunch of the details that go with that. So far so good. Just yesterday she commented that when we were dating things were great - most of the time, then there was an engagement and marriage that distracts you and keeps things exciting with of course some ebbs and flows. 3 years of marriage has its ebbs and flows as well. Then she mentioned that sees us happier now than we have ever been and not only now - but that she sees this as being something that will sustain itself over the longterm and that I finally "got it." I have to say I loved the fact that she pretty much told me that I am really the one that is changing - she was just waiting for me to accept that she has been in charge all along.

ALL HERS said...

Hi anon;

After 3 years of marriage you finally got it. Good for you! It took us almost 30 years of marriage to get to a begining of a WLM. I told my wife, she read your comment, and we are both glad and happy for you. Be advised though, for a couple who has been there, that children and careers will hinder a WLM. But stick with it, we did, and we are so happy today. We would grab a day and have a slave day when the children were out at a friends or at school, me as the slave naturally. Now we are retired and we have a 24/7 WLM, and yes, I am basically her slave. And hopefully things will never change. She says they never will!

Hang in there and realize that the early years are the toughest. Careers, chilldren, family obligations will hinder what you would like to be a true WLM. And it will be, just a few bumps in the road.

Treat your wife like a queen , obey her, worship her and adore her. Take time every morning to do something that shows you worship her. When my wife enters the kitchen every single morning, I get on my knees , she comes over to me and lifts or pulls aside her teddy, and I place 3 kisses on her pantied pussy. Then I hug her, tell her I love her so much, and go back to preparing breakfast and coffee for her. The best way to start the day!!!!

Sports Talk said...

Thanks for the advice All Hers. I can see what you mean about how easy it is to go astray and to allow other things to possibly get in the way. I'm always on the lookout for advice!!!

Anonymous said...

Very odd - somehow my computer was logged into someone else's sports talk ID who has been a member here since 2009?? Anyway, thanks again All Hers. Anon (although looking to join asap).

Mark Remond said...

I'm enjoying the comments immensely and apologize for not contributing, or having posted in a couple weeks. Thanks for keeping things alive!

Donna said...

I used to disagree with BeckieSue about female superiority. But it seems to be a fact. She talked about todays girls passing by the boys.

About the Soap Box Derby which used to be boys only. This past Saturday, I read the All-American Derby was run, and out of the seven category champions, six were girls. Only one boy (ten years old) won a title, and perhaps when he gets older, girls might beat him. Over half of the runners-up were girls. Her comment on academic achievement made me search back a little. It was true in our area as well. Almost half of the awards and scholarships were awarded to girls.

How are today's teenage girls not to realize the fact of female superiority with results like these, and many other results? I talked to family members, an aunt and my brother who are both teachers. They said that today, girls are finally being given equal encouragement and opportunity in the math and science classes. Equal? As BeckieSue said "once females are given equality, they quickly pass being equal to being superior."

Anonymous said...

Yes Donna but how are we going to reconcile the false expectations and culture of entitlement males have been given in the patriarchy with what is happening in reality.

This is a transition time between the patriarchy and perhaps Feminism.Ther will be one after between Feminism and Matriarchy.

Just as we still have the remains of Feudalism whilst in a Capatalist system wewill have patriarchal concepts and conditioning in a Matriarchy.


Anonymous said...

Com'on guys...let's keep it light. We are talking about how we worship and obey our wives here, how we do it and why. Not getting deep into the meaning of it all.

Anonymous said...

So I love the song below - even before I came across the WLM - has always been the unofficial theme song of my marriage. Check it out. Anon #3.

#3 said...

Instead of Anon #3 I'll just jump in as #3 in honor of the greatest baseball player ever - Babe Ruth and Chase Uttley the 3 hole hitter on the greatest baseball team ever - 2011 Phillies!!! Now enjoy the Jerry Raferty song above!

#3 said...

By the way - that way my attempt at taking things back to the lighter side!

Anonymous said...

I think reading this may have just saved my marriage. I'll let you know.

Deep think said...

Hi Donna::

I am glad I chanced across you comments concerning girls out performing boys. I had been wondering why boys didn't seem to be very disturb or ashamed when they are bested by a girl. I am a 69 years old man. Back in my high school days you would have to do a suicide watch over a boy who lost to a girl in anything physical or athletic.

But it seems resonable that boy's
subconcious minds can become programed to accept defeat if they experience failure offten enough. So girls keep on kicking butt until the first thing on a male's mind is to find a woman to worship.

Anonymous said...

To Donna and Beckie:

I just hate to bust your little buble. I just received a letter from a soap box derby ofical who was responding to my inquiry as to why girls are winning most soap box tiurnament races. He said "Boys are not fliable enough to get as far down inside the cabs of the cars.Therefor they are actually handicaped in that becqause of this their bodies offer too much wind resistance that slows then down. Thus sorry Donna and beckie but the girls aren't winning because they are superior racers but because the boys are handicaped.

As for education its the same deal. The student's grade value is determined by course work and exams. Girls do better on course work so they assigned 70% value to course work and only 30 to exams which boys excel at. Thus the educational system handicaps boys the same way soap box derbies have handicaped boys so it is no surprise that girls are out performing boys in both.

The reason girls are outperforming boys inpracticaly everything is because girls are being told that in order to get their fair share of the good jobs they have to outshine the boys. Thus girls try harder. Girls give their all into everything they do while boys do everything half heartedly.

Thus we see there are some very logical reasons why girls are out performing boys none of which susports donna's and Becie's wishful thinking that it proves girl superiority.

These are all things that can be essily corected and when they are
there goes female superiority down the drain and then once the playing field is really made equal
we will find that neither gender will out shine the other and true equality and parity will be achieved.