Sunday, October 13, 2013


Many progressive couples are of the mindset that men aren’t to be granted outside leisure because they just get into too much trouble. True, if your man is going out with a group of guys after work or to a sporting event of some sort. Little good is likely to come of it; he’s likely to have listened to an evening of men ridiculing women and to have spent a lot of money.

But what if he were out with a group of guys all of whom were in female-led relationships? What if the guys he’s spending time with love their wives and, better still, love their wives being in charge? What if the guys getting together actually reinforces everyone’s commitments to an FLR? Your man comes home better than when he left! Intriguing possibilities! And great nights out!

Guys in FLRs and with strong feminist leanings need a support group, too. Aside from infrequent workshops for men in FLRs, men simply don’t have any other males to talk to or share experiences with on a regular basis. Discussions about his wife’s being in charge of the household and him being in a submissive role aren’t going to be taking place at the local bar. Yet there are increasing numbers of men in the lifestyle who need to have such discussions; men who need reinforcement, encouragement, and new ideas.

Through a journal entry I proposed the idea of “guy socials” to my mother-in-law, Sue, and through her, to my wife, Nancy. Sue carried the idea forward, speaking with a few wives. Some were skeptical; they had had many bad experiences with men’s night out. So our first task was to figure out how to eliminate the possibilities for bad behavior to the satisfaction of these women.

Tom, a personal friend also in an FLR, and I—with the help of Nancy’s mother—decided that putting appropriate rules in place would make these socials possible. The more rules the better, it was decided, in order to address any situation that might arise.

Now we’re not talking about some impromptu party here. Rather, it’s about socials—well-planned, wife-approved, woman-supervised get-togethers with an organized agenda and proper decorum. It may be guys’ night out, but women are in control; and all of us—women and men—want it that way!

So we put together some rules and reviewed them with the wives:
  • Guy socials are limited to once a month.
  • The socials are, for the time being, limited to a group of six men in female-led marriages. Should the group expand in the future, it will be progressive gentlemen only and only with the women’s approval! No one wants to debate the merits of feminism or of FLRs with outsiders; the intent is to reinforce FLRs, not undermine the good work couples have been doing in promoting the lifestyle.
  • Socials are on the man’s time and will not detract from other work he has to do; a man’s work at home is always the priority.
  • Women approve of the socials’ agenda.
  • The woman who chaperones at the event will ensure that the social
    follows the agenda; she can modify that agenda as she sees fit.
  • Invitations are sent to the woman, not the man. “Dear Ms. Smith, the presence of your husband is requested at a social to take place at the home of etc…” The invitation goes on to describe the planned event and concludes with, “Please give your permission or your regrets by returning the enclosed card.”
  • The man must have his wife’s permission to attend, and we must have her RSVP for him to do so. A man’s not being permitted to attend a social doesn’t endanger his future participation. After all, a woman in charge is what we are all committed to. If anything, denial might be considered a badge of honor and an outward manifestation of a commitment to the lifestyle. As progressive gentlemen, all of us have had to say “my wife won’t let me” from time to time and think nothing of it whether speaking with someone in the lifestyle or with someone at work.
  • Women always have an invitation to attend and participate in men’s night out and never have to RSVP their intent to attend.
  • The social will always accommodate women attendees; women can steer discussion topics during the social if they so desire or they can plan an entirely different event. In advance of one of our meetings the women decided we’d all attend a local theater; and that was guy’s night out, and an enjoyable one, I might add!
  • Women are honored guests and treated accordingly. Men take turns
    serving women attendees.
  • Meetings are planned at least eight weeks in advance; there are no impromptu husband socials.
  • Activities and discussion topics for the meeting must be submitted in advance for review and approval; women have the right to changes or modify the event at any time.
  • Women approve of the social’s venue; a man’s home is best if his wife approves; the women frown on restaurants and bars and do not permit meetings at such places, although the ballet or theater is okay.
  • At least one woman is to be in attendance at these socials and act as chaperone; if circumstances arise where no women can attend a social, then it is canceled.
  • Men clean up after a social.
  • We discuss a variety of topics and always have an agenda for the meeting included with the invitation. Invitees may be asked to review a book, story, or issue in preparation for the social. This leads to some great discussions. Topics to date? On the serious side, Feminist issues and women in the workplace topics as well as lighter fare such as “Your best housekeeping tips.” We also had a wine and cheese social and went as a group to the ballet. We’ve had a Feminist speaker and plan to have other women guests present other topics in the future.
So how does it all work? Well, thanks to the rules and women’s oversight, very well. We’ve had some great socials, and we’ve done it without burdening any of the women. Those women who attended in order to provide oversight have all enjoyed the time.

Tom, a longtime personal friend, and I take turns hosting the meetings largely due to our central location. Our first meeting was a wine and cheese social. Darlene, one of the wives, decided to attend because she was very skeptical. Initially thinking the gathering  was intended to be for “men only,” she said, “If the guys don’t want women to attend, then it shouldn’t be happening.” We agreed and assured her that women had an open invitation and that any social without a female chaperone would be canceled. While other wives were also hesitant at first, Darlene’s decision to attend and Nancy’s mother being home to supervise the event allayed any fears they may have had.

It’s been great ever since, with women attending every meeting. The guys always prepare and serve some light fare and keep the ladies happy with good wine, great coffee and involvement in the discussion. It’s interesting (but certainly not surprising) the role reversal we have here. The women are all
successful career women and disengage when the men start talking housekeeping. Twenty years ago, it would be the opposite. At a recent meeting where the topic was housekeeping tips, the women were visibly bored and drifted to another room to “talk business”; we males kept their coffee cups full and continued with our discussions.

What’s next? A number of things are in the works, some of which will help the guys with holiday shopping. We are also excited about our next social in a few weeks on Ikebana, Japanese flower arranging. Ikebana is about beautifying one’s home, a topic of interest in our male group.



I'm-Hers said...

Dennis, you didn't mention this but I sense an underlying 'my wife, as well as the other wives, don't trust us'. What a sad commentary. You mean to tell me you can't go for a morning jog with another guy, you can't watch a ballgame with friends every now and then, you can'g to on a hike with men - not even, say a boyscout outing? I understand the purpose of the socials you mention - that they focus on promoting male submission, feminist topics but there is good in having a male friend with whom one can just enjoy another's company.

Anonymous said...

Hi Dennis

Has the woman designated to 'chaperone' the event ever had to interject and change or shut down any inappropriate discussion or activity? Are the men all so well trained that they try and out do each other in their service at the events or do any need a quiet word from the wife to help the other guys in the kitchen or go easy on the drink for instance?


Alex said...

For IH,

I disagree. This is not about distrust; it0s about Female Domination of the second sex. Often times a prohibition from a Mistress without ant reason at all goes a long way to teach the slave his slavery. It is about Womenhood dominating manhood and about Wives being revered and even feared as the Queens they are in a slave's marriage to them. It is about the Females prolonging the sport of their conquest and in the end always winning: it is them who are Females, it is hem who are Mistresses.

Anonymous said...

A very nice piece, dennis. I only wish I had enough personal friends in FLRs to have such socials. (A nice touchstone for me was that my one such friend is named Tom, and my wife's name is Nancy!) I'm in between I'm-Hers and Alex on the trust issue. From examples you mentioned there isn't a pathological or neurotic mistrust on the wives' parts, it's an understandable reaction to specific past events and/or societal norms and expectations. I think it's healthy and admirable that, despite their misgivings, the ladies choose to allow these activities--activities which can establish or restore trust in their husbands' behavior. How many people, of both genders, have a bad experience, lose trust in the object of the experience, and in their fear shun it forever, never taking another chance? These socials seem like big wins for both sides. Thanks for sharing them!--WhMs

Anonymous said...

My wife manages all of my free time anyway I'm sure she would approve of a meeting like this.I always review what I read on FLR blogs and books with her and would think a men's support group would be a great idea. R R

Kathy said...

In my experience men do not talk about femdom with other guys.

If you put a few guys together in a room they will talk sports, more sports, and a little shop.

My little group tried it once or twice. We found it is better to leave the guys at home.


Alex said...

Ms. Kathy,

Many men don't like talking about Femdom with other men because they like Women and feel utterly un-attracted to men so in a sense talking about Femdom kind of ruins it for them because it's sort of like seeing a gorgeous girl but seeing a hairy guy in the background -- meaning it ruins the picture. It's hard to explain but I think you understand it without further explanation Ma'am.

In any case, I think what is happening in this type of groups is that people are expressing who they really are and the type of gender roles that used to be forbidden are now coming to the surface. That is a different thing. Even those men usually like that.

Submissive men tend to want to play the submissive role that in other societies used to be for the women. They want to be "girls", not gay boys and also not laughed upon by men. They want to be controlled by Women but only with love. They don't want to be abused, they want to be spanked from time to time which is different. And they don't like talking about their most intimate things, those that stir up their sexy imagination with boys in general. Sometimes they might but it can't be forced.

I think the key that makes these gatherings work for Dennis is that they are Female controlled and run and that there is always a Female chaperone there. And a very high level of trust between all involved.

So of course they don't talk about sports and cars, because they are building a new type of gender role. One in which it is a boyish thing to keep house and a girly thing to do business.

Let me tell you something. I am not a fan of sports. Actually, I kind of hate them. Well, not only that, let me be honest, I kind of hate "boyish" things in general (I guess I am in reality a girl... and I have lots more to say about that... but it's not the topic here). However, I just discovered Alex Morgan, a female soccer player who has the most beautiful face and the sweetest voice ever. She has interviews on Youtube and just hearing her voice melts me.

So I am a fan of Alex. She is the girl I admire.
Do you see how that was done? Believe me, with all my "yuck" for sports if it's about her, I'll watch soccer. She is just gorgeous. I think everyone should watch her interview. She is my heroine.
And yes, it's about gender roles because Alex is a very feminine girl, the way I want to be. The way I like gender roles. In one video she even says she was such a tomboy growing up, catching toads in the back yard. I think Alex is a dominant lady, and I'm sure a gorgeous one in many levels, not only physical.

Mark Remond said...

Kathy, that is a most interesting comment! As you know, I confessed something quite similar to you recently -- getting together with another submissive guy, ostensibly for the purpose of being able to reveal our innate orientation with each other and drop the macho pretense -- and we didn't do it. There was a palpable air over lunch of keeping up the macho facade, although we paid lip service to our interest in femdom, FLRs, etc.

However, both of us are required to maintain that facade in the course of our daily lives, to differing extents, just as your John is at work. That is a key factor, I think, in making it not seem "safe" to expose the extent of one's desire to be enslaved by one's wife, by the Feminine. Voila, sports is the safe escape valve.

But I remember how keenly our mutual friend fd yearned for a real-life "submale" friend with whom he could truly be his deeply submissive-to-women self, to speak about femdom, fantasy and reality, compare notes on housework, etc., etc. At this time, fd was a full-time househusband, or perhaps only worked part-time for a female boss who was friendly with "Mrs. FD." I do not doubt that given the opportunity, fd would not have talked sports -- unless, like our friend Alex above, it was about female athletes!

Finally I think of the many comments to your blog by Ms. Zoe about how her husband, Mattie, loves to gossip and compare notes with her father about their lives as owned and totally controlled property of powerful females -- Ms. Zoe and her mother. Again, neither of these guys has any need to pretend to be macho.

Anonymous said...

When I first saw the heading of this article, I thought great what a fantastic idea and my Female Led self felt very light and enthusiastic, by the end of the piece though I was feeling very Female leaden. I can see how all the participants really enjoy their meetings, and they seem to be great fun, so what was it that weighed down my spirits.
With reference to: It’s interesting (but certainly not surprising) the role reversal we have here. The women are all successful career women and disengage when the men start talking housekeeping. Twenty years ago, it would be the opposite. At a recent meeting where the topic was housekeeping tips, the women were visibly bored and drifted to another room to “talk business”; we males kept their coffee cups full and continued with our discussions.
There is something about this description that makes me feel very uncomfortable. This just seems to be a simple gender reversal of roles and not indicative of any progress in the relation between the sexes. It seems just the same as the gentlemen retire for port, cigars and snooker; the ladies retire for cards, etc.
I remember reading about an FLR husband who told his wife he was happy to do the housework, so she could do more important things. Of course it is great to do more of the housework so your wife can do other things, but it’s the “more important things” that I find worrying. I fear that by having such an attitude the old chauvinistic dualism is being recreated, but reversed; only now women’s work is so important out there in the real world, and as for men, they can just focus on keeping the house clean and pretty. Something is missing.
At root it would appear that one set of activities, namely housework, is being judged as boring and unworthy of discussion by the successful career people; but good old business, commerce and making money is too important to be left to the cleaning people.
I am in an FLR and I do housework, so does my wife; she views housework as a spiritual practice; physical cleaning as a way of spiritual purification. In a shamanistic world where every object is imbued with spirit, every single thing has the right to be appreciated and kept clean and looked after. Cleaning is not done just to keep things looking good, but to show gratitude to the object being cleaned and appreciation for the service it offers us. All activities are viewed as having the potential to be spiritual practices, be it making money or cleaning house.
The idea of an FLR supporting social event is great, but I am inclined to agree with I’m hers re the issue of trust; when a knight has given his word to his lady to behave in a noble way, surely if our ladies can’t then let their knights get together without the evening descending into a frat party… Personally I would feel a total failure if my wife felt I was incapable of behaving myself without a chaperone to enforce discipline.
The whole thing is very Confucian in its approach of an imposed set of outward rules, rather than the more organic Daoist way of cultivating an inner natural virtue.
At the heart of this what comes across to me, is that just as women were once treated as children and thought incapable of doing something important like voting or running a business, we seem to have a situation where men are considered incapable of organizing a social occasion and are being reduced to the level of infants. I acknowledge that this obviously works for the couples involved; to each their own.
Perhaps it’s a bit like physics, the laws of Quantum physics which apply to the very small electrons and quarks do not apply to Mechanical physics and big things like mountains. This site is my all-time favourite FLR site because in the main it deals with the very small and intimate, namely the worshipping of your wife; I guess I just feel uncomfortable with the way FLR can manifest in the big outer world.
Just out of interest, if any of the men had wanted to join the ladies in their business discussion, would they have been allowed to attend and make a contribution?

Anonymous said...

Have any of you considered dedicating an hour of these meetings as a 'Thank you' for your host and hostess by doing some sort of project?
Having several males in attendance who are good at house work could probably do a dandy job of deep cleaning one or more of the hostesses rooms...

Anonymous said...

How would one find a submissive men's support group in their area?

Mark Remond said...

Anonymous (re: How to find submissive men's support group) -- an excellent question, but one that I have not been able to answer, alas! Let me know if you find one!

Anonymous said...

My wife and I are both involved in a support group for women with troubled pasts that are either homeless or on the streets for one reason or another . It is run by women who can help them find a place to live and also help find employment. We both find it very gratifying and rewarding to be able to help in this cause. It's also a way I can support my wife as well as other women. R R

Alex said...


I respect your opinion and it's very nice that you stand for men's rights in this Matriarchal world.

However, let me tell you that boys and men are not being discriminated by Dominant Women just because they realize that each has different roles. Just like you wouldn't expect your daughter to be a secretary, you wouldn't expect your son to have to go be a CEO somewhere. Each has different roles and each was created by the same God but Women were made with to be leaders and Heads of Households and they always need a cute and dedicated hubby to be their support when they come home.

Women and men are both important, but let's face it: Women are more important. That is true biologically, as they are the child bearers and that is also true in today's business world were 70% of small businesses are owned by women. The rest are often still managed by women but are put in their men's name because women love to protect their men and not leave them without anything.

Men have important roles in the kitchen, pleasing their wives inside and outside of the bedroom and men of today can do almost anything: from chocolate cakes, cookies, rice, dumplings to the complex tasks of housekeeping and even, why not, shopping for the house.

Many believe men should be allowed to vote. I don't share that view because the world should be leaded by those with the best qualities to lead and it's not a shame for the second sex to not be the leader but the leaded by the better sex. It's OK, it's acceptable and it's healthy. It's the way God planed it all out.

WhMs said...

Too bad there are so many people named Anonymous here, it's hard to show to whom I'm responding! This is in response to the comment which included a Confucian/Daoist comparison.
I agree that I prefer to be trusted by my wife, as I am. At the same time, acknowledged FLRs aren't thick on the ground around here, and I wouldn't want to miss an opportunity for connection with a couple coming from a different background/place in their relationship. Sometimes imposed outward rules are a very useful structure for healing, as a cast is needed for a broken leg or a sobriety definition helps a person starting recovery.
In any event, I'd hope to enjoy such get togethers, and hope further for their success to heal whatever deficit of trust might exist for other couples involved.
PS Thanks for articulating the "appreciation for objects through cleaning" idea, I felt just that way detailing my old car before selling it back to the dealership when we downsized for retirement!


Anonymous said...

(Devoted Hubby here)

From personal experience, I find that it's only women who take an interest in the arrangement I have with my wife (I work part time and am the main homemaker and caregiver while she is a high-level executive). At a party, when my wife mentioned our arrangement to a female executive and her stay-at-home husband, the woman turned to me and sized me up saying "so you're the primary caregiver" and then talked shop with my wife while the husband and I talked about everything but our home roles! At another party, when I casually mentioned my part-time status, one guy sort of blushed and changed the subject. At another party businesswoman took a keen interest in my role at home, sharing with me how she had sacrificed her early career for her now divorced husband and complimenting me on being so suportive of my wife. These instances make me feel much more comfortable when talking to women about domestic life issues than men, even stay-at-home dads.

Mr. Concerned said...

Right on, I'm-Hers. From your name, you're obviously submissive, but you realize that men are human beings with real human needs.

Regarding the article, support groups for submissive men are great. We all need peers we can share our interests with.

However, this arrangement is draconian. It is not femdom. It is supreme insecurity, immaturity, and fear of losing control on the part of the women. Get some help.

The other thing that concerns me is that the men have no outlet for individuation. The women control who they socialize with, when it happens, where it happens, what activities will be done, the topics of discussion - and then to top it off, they SUPERVISE it! Why don't they just get a bunch of string puppets? They don't need men. They need barbie dolls.

Sure, the men agree to it and claim to like it. I like beer and chocolate cake but it doesn't mean it's good for me, so I moderate my intake. Unhealthy choices are unhealthy choices.

Femdom isn't the issue. It's the pervasive control that is the red flag.

Obedient husband said...

My wife and I live in "the upstate" of SC.
We'd very much like to befriend a like-minded "FLR" couple.

I think most people, ourselves included, simply want to limit their degree of "exposure" to that portion of society that is deemed "friendly" or accepting of FLR.
Thus, very few people develop an internet presence that ventures beyond "Anonymous". Thus, it's pretty unlikely that like-minded folks will find each other.

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with I'm-Hers and others. I have a group of friends that I've known for two decades that aren't specifically in FLRs (though some are pretty dang close) that I get together with once a month or so, and my wife encourages it because she trusts me and knows I will still be my dutiful and doting self when I return

Alex said...

How was the weekend? Been a long time.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Redmond, The Eulenspiegel Society (TES) a fetish and fantasy group in the New York Metro area had various sub-groups at various times in the nineties including a Dominant Woman-Submissive Man group and just a Submissive Man group. Depending on the personalities involved these groups worked at times and at other times didn't. I have not been involved since the turn of the millenium but I think they do have a website. You could check there. One of the problems that reoccurred is that were these supposed to be support groups for sharing feelings or were they supposed to be socials where single males could meet Dominant Women? (Obviously in the case of the submale only group that was not its original intent but the founder began to invite Female doms to give presentations and mix with the group). This was a decade or so before the Female Led concept took off so there were not a lot of couples around. The Dom Male-Sub Female group however had a number of continuing couples. In any event it might be interesting to see if the growth of FLR has impacted this group.

Mark Remond said...

Dennis responds to Anonymous ("Have any of you considered..."):

Well, the men do pitch in and help with preparation, serving and clean up, but we don't have a hostess, the women are in attendance to chaperone and possibly guide the meeting. As for doing "a dandy job of cleaning one or more of the hostesses room," as far as she's concerned, cleaning is a man's responsibility, so you're not doing her a favor at all.